My 44(Ruger) loads are 22.5 gr. H110 with a 240 gr. jacketed bullet.
My 5" Smith kicks to hard with these so I loaded 18.5 gr. 2400 with Rainier 240. Petr and I tried a couple dozen of these in his short barrel Taurus.
I thought they were easier on the hands.
What do you like?
thanks for any replies, ace

Only problem with downloading slow powders is the velocity deviation increases usually quite a bit. Run them through a crono and make sure they are consistant. I'd suggest shorter cases or 44 special cases for downloading, start with the suggested amount of powder in a magnum case, measure the remaining space. Then subtract 1/8" powder, (and get a weight) cut 1/8" off case, (or go to a .44 special case) and run through the crono. My downloaded .454 loads deviate a lot more then the same bullets and same velocities from the .45 colt cases.

with faster powders, that is probably not so much an issue.

What were you sizing your bullets at? Hang in there with me, and I will explain in due time.
What was your crimp like?
What is the diameter of your expanding die?
What Primer were you using?
H110 is a bit shaky in the velocity department, at least I have found it to be so. 2400 gives me the best velocities, with the lowest pressures, and best standard deveation.

Gunsmith
I have been using jacketed bullets in the Ruger, 7.5 in. barrel and Rainiers in the smith, 5 inch barrel, both 240 gr. I would have to go out to the shop to mike the expander, but it seems ok. Using WLP primers and a roll crimp.
I am listening, ace

Gunsmith
well, I got up enough energy to go out to the shop and find a mike.
expander die=.426
sized and belled case=..425
later

Well, first off you are using bullets made by a company that has a quality product for the average shooter, but I do not use, and neither did Elmer, that style of bullet. For them to operate the Master Caster, the moulds have to have a rounded lube groove. This does not allow for proper balance of the bullet.( Very technical, but hang in there with me.)
You need to use RCBS 250 K, or and original Lyman 429421 mould. I think someone else is making one, but off hand I do not know there name. I have found that jacketed bullets never shoots as well as properly cast bullets cost a lot more, and wear out the barrel faster. I do not use them. And do not use gas checks. Elmer once again was right, they do not expand to fill the grooves properly, increase pressures, and decrease accuracy. No reason for them other than to sell gas checks.
Use these steps.
1. Cast a bullet
2. use it to slug your barrel. Make sure it totally upsets by placing a peice of wooden dowell under the bullet when it is in the barrel, and then giving it a firm whack, then remove the dowell, push the bullet the rest of the way down the barrel, looking for hard spots. I have found that this way I get a real reading of the diameter of the barrel, not just the lands. It is amazing how off some barrels are.
3. do the same with the cylinders of your sixgun, labling each bullet as per cylinder. I number my cylinders, but you can put magic marker numbers on them to keep straight, and it easily removes.
4 the size of the cylinders should be .001 to .002 over the size of the barrel. in a 44 magnum, or special.
5. size your bullets .001 over the size of your cylinders. You should have a press fit when you insert the rounds in the chambers.
6. lube your bullets with a good lube, adding graphite to the mix. This eliminates leading.
7. For long range shooting, use 2400, or a powder of a similar burn. I use 2400 as it is readily available, Elmer swore by it, and it REALLY works well.
8 Your expanding die is a little large for my tastes. Mine is .424. The bullets leave a little wasp shape, as Elmer called it, but this alignes the bullet better with the cylinder, and allows for a better burn of the powder by increasing neck tension. if you have too much deviation of velocity, this is the way to get thing in line.
9.good crimp. Use the crinping goove for what is there for. Watch for over crimping, this does no good as it destorts the bullet.
10. Use a regular primer. not a Magnum primer. The Magnum primer seems to have too hot a burn, leads the face of the cylinder, and causes vertical stringing. Just mine, and Elmers notes.
11 Start with 18.5 grains 2400, and work up to 22 grains. (with a 245, 250 grain bullet in the 44 Magnum, 14 to 17.5 in the Special. Make sure you weigh the bullets ( I have an RCBS mould that comes out at 270 grains. Shoots well, but I have to cut down on the powder charge a lot.)
12. enjoy.
This is what I found works well. Right out of Sixguns.

Also. the cylinders of your gun shuld line up perfectly with the barrel. A range rod wiill not tell you this. The only thing that will tell you is to look from the rear,(remove the firing pin on some guns) and see if the same amount of lands on one side as the other. It is amazing how off I have seen Taurus, Ruger, and new Smith guns.
Mike a slug in the front of the barrel, and one pushed all the way through. Most guns made now have a step where the frame meets the barrel,(the tread area.) No gun will shoot well with that kind of problem. It should be returned to the factory. My Smith went back 3 time before they fixed it right. Now I get 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards, all day long. Better than the 3 inch it was getting.
Taurus is having problems with the barrels having even diamensions on both sides of the barrel. My father in law RIP, had a Taurus 44 special that had no rifling on one side of the barrel, and deep rifling on the other. They gave him a new gun.
The lock up of the cylinder should be tested with empty brass in the chambers, as that locks up the extractor in position, and gives a true reading.
there should be only .003 thousanths headspace  on a 44 Magnum, and no more than .006 on the cylinder gap.Tighter is better. Check the cylinder gap with the fired casing in the gun, as that will take up for endshake and give you a true reading.
Check headspace by placing a fired cartidge in the chamber and using a feeler guage, seeing which one fits right.
I hope this works for you guys. I have made a few custom handguns and guaged a few hundred with no unsatified customers yet, so I may have something going.

I’m ashamed to admit the only thing I use my furnace for is fishing weights. Sounds like a good project, how many rounds an hour do you normally cast? where do you get your lead? How about a recommendation on lube/ graphite as well.

gunsmith, all sounds like good info, one more question.
what mix for the lead? % tin?
thanks, ace

I found that straight wheel weights work fantastic. Too hard a bullet, and it does not expand in the barrel to seal against the pressures. I take my bullets, and when they are cast, drop them into water. That gives them a hard skin, with a soft core for expantion.
I killed a fallow deer with one shot from a 44 special single action army at 50  yards, on video, with that combination, and it worked real well. Also took a pheasant from the air,after everone else had missed it, with the same gun on that hunt. 2 shots 2 kills.

I have used Lyman Orange, with about tablespoons of graphite in it. enough to make it black as the ace of spades. Then remolded it in the original container, or poured it in my Lyman sizer.

[quote]For them to operate the Master Caster, the moulds have to have a rounded lube groove.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. Because of it’s design the Master Caster will dislodge bullets with square lube grooves. I have three moulds set up for a Master Caster, the L429421 and RCBS 44-250-K, and Ballisti Cast 1103. All will fall from the mould on the first hammer if not the second. You may be referring to the automated machines as opposed to the manual ones.

As for the square vs round lube groove, it’s something I feel will never be settled. I’ve seen both that shoot equally well. The one we produced was a Lyman 429421. As you can see by the blueprint below my two 4 cavity Lyman moulds use lube grooves which aren’t 90 degree. In my own testing I find this in no way places it at a disadvantage to the square lube groove bullets.

This bullet was shot at one of the Linebaugh shoots long ago. The bullet was better at long range than the LBT’s and others according to reports. John Taffin, Brian Pearce, Dave Scovill, and ole friend Dave Clements have all used and find it takes the back seat to none including the RCBS 44-250-K and RCBS 44-245-SWC.

As I said the round vs square groove debate goes on. God Bless.

Lynn & Barbara
Dry Creek Bullet Works
[IMG]http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Lyman429421Blueprint1RS.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE]I found that straight wheel weights work fantastic.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree. Too hard bullets are a problem. The wheel weights I've used over the years will test 9 to 10 BHN when cast at 725 degrees and air cooled. This is plenty for loads to 25,000 psi and in some sixguns will work at 30,000 and above. My favorite 44 mag load used 20 grs. of 2400 and a L429421 at 250 grs. sized to .431. Lube of choice is LBT. God Bless.

Lynn & Barbara
Dry Creek Bullet Works

You guys "sure as shootin" know your cast bullets....

I've used tons of wheel weights with good luck ,until recently.
Having problems with zinc lately , and after going through cleaning my tools ,I sworn off the stuff.
I was stocking up on the stuff because they are going to stop using lead in WW by 2011.
There is a big outfit here in Tn. that makes WW,and they don't make zinc ones now , they do use scrap ones and zinc is getting mixed in with them all.
I broke down and bought a bunch of 90/5/5 from a pro smelter in In.
I can add pure lead to soften it or monotype to harden it.
It's great stuff and the guy packs it in wooden boxes for about 1.50 per # delivered .
If anyone wants his number let me know and I'll see if he minds me posting it here.
Southern Man
NO DAMN MAN KILLS ME AND LIVES
"General "Nathan Bedford Forrest

I'd like the number please. You can email me.......Creeker
lah@suddenlink.net

Creeker
I just got a quote from the smelter for 200# of 16 to 1.
He ask $1.95 a # to use plumbers lead and $2.25 to use foundry stock, foundry stock for tin in both.
He did'nt say if that was shipping and all.
I'm waiting on reply as to why it's so much higher than the 90/5/5 I got a month ago, and if it's OK to give out his info.
I'll get back with you.
Southern Man 

Thanks.........Creeker

EvilBay is another source of WW, this one is under a buck a lb, shipped:
http://cgi.ebay.com/50-lbs-Wheel-Weight-Lead_W0QQitemZ320348837288QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_
This one is a little over a buck, shipped:
http://cgi.ebay.com/60-LB-LEAD-WHEEL-WEIGHT-INGOTS-for-BULLETS-SINKERS_W0QQitemZ350175818834QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH _
I'v been watching for casting stuff and these come up regularly.

AL

Al
I've been getting 125# buckets of WW regularly for free.
When you get your tools contaminated with zinc , by the time you get them clean you will not want to see any more WW.
Did you see that Lyman/ Freedom Arms mold sale on ebay today.
I started to let you know about it , but then thought you would not want the gas check design.

Creeker the smelter hasn't got back with me yet.
As soon as he does I'll let you know. 

Southern Man  

I think I'm just going to have to (bite the bullet) and order one. Want 300-325 gr keith and I'm not seeing them used.

boy o boy
I asked a question and did I get answers.
I know this is kind of late but thanks loads.
now that better weather is here maybe I can get out and try some of this stuff, thanks again,
ace

I was talking about the automated machines.  Many of the molds made are designed for use in them.
A square shoulder in the grooves gives better balance to the bullet,and allows more lube to be in the groove. It also allows the lube to smear off more consistently  in the barrel than a beveled one. That is what I have found in shooting 1000s of rounds, experimenting constantly, and reading incessantly.
If the beveled grooves were best, Elmer, in his experiments,of which he preformed a lot of, would have had no problem incorporating it in his design. But he was adiment  (bad spelling but cant get it right) about the square grooves. I believe he was right.
Why did you put bevels on your bullet? A simple cut off tool made to the correct thickness would have cut the grooves cheaply for your cherry. Making the beveled grooves must have been time consuming for the tool maker/machinist.

[QUOTE]A square shoulder in the grooves gives better balance to the bullet[/QUOTE]

How did you prove the balance thing? The bullet blueprint posted will make round holes in paper at 1300 yards so it must be balanced.

[QUOTE]It also allows the lube to smear off more consistently in the barrel than a beveled one.[/QUOTE]

How did you detect this?

[QUOTE]Why did you put bevels on your bullet? A simple cut off tool made to the correct thickness would have cut the grooves cheaply for your cherry. Making the beveled grooves must have been time consuming for the tool maker/machinist.[/QUOTE]

This is a question for Lyman Products. They cut the cherrie. Look at the bottom of the blueprint, it reads LB429421.

And again I've found no difference between the round, square, or beveled lube groove pertaining to accuracy, leading, or killing power.

And till now I've had no one prove the square lube groove was better balanced or "lubed the barrel" better, but I'm all ears so prove away.

To get a lathe tool cut to EXACTLY the same angle, that is to the nth degree, is out of human ability. But to get it perfectly square is easy. Elmer designed his bullet with square grooves for 2 reasons. One was for balance, and the other was for more lube in the grooves. I realize that a 6 1/2 inch barrel may not use all the lube, but a rifle barrel will. Every little bit more is a more accurate bullet. Elmer had many disputes over this subject, and I do not pretend to know as much as he did, but he would not back down on this subject. He stood FIRM. So much Lyman and he were not on good terms toward the end. He liked ,I know I am misspelling it Saeco molds because they kept his original design. He cursed the others for rounding and beveling his grooves, and making the front cutting band smaller than the others. They should all be the same.

[QUOTE]07/13/09 at 09:54 PM #26 To get a lathe tool cut to EXACTLY the same angle, that is to the nth degree, is out of human ability. But to get it perfectly square is easy. Elmer designed his bullet with square grooves for 2 reasons. One was for balance, and the other was for more lube in the grooves. I realize that a 6 1/2 inch barrel may not use all the lube, but a rifle barrel will. Every little bit more is a more accurate bullet. Elmer had many disputes over this subject, and I do not pretend to know as much as he did, but he would not back down on this subject. He stood FIRM. So much Lyman and he were not on good terms toward the end. He liked ,I know I am misspelling it Saeco molds because they kept his original design. He cursed the others for rounding and beveling his grooves, and making the front cutting band smaller than the others. They should all be the same.[/QUOTE]

You spelled it correct: Saeco as in Redding/Saeco. These are some of the finest moulds on the market. I use one to produce a lite 45-70 bullet.

When Mr. Keith designed his bullet is was drawn by him offhand on paper. He had no blueprint and refused to make one. If the bullet from the mould looked correct, it was correct. It is true he loved the square grooves and square bands. But I'll stand by the statement that no one has proven the square lube groove to be more accurate than the beveled or to lead less.

I personally feel the greatest thing about the Keith is the full diameter front driving band. The Keith I make differs only in the bullet he drew used a .1" wide band where mine is .090. This make the chambering of the round much better as the brass grows in length or the chambers become dirty.